Liz Staszak - Will I Continue To Hide My Disability
[00:00:00] Mark: Hey family. Welcome to the Kinship Collective. We are you are here. We're ending otherness together as we share and lament and celebrate our stories and reimagine scripture. we are growing empathy, building solidarity, and ultimately realizing that we have always been Ladies and gentlemen today, I get to have an incredible conversation with a sister who has always embodied hope. And love and faith in ways that always made me smile. She, uh, was a friend and is a friend from seminary. time there, she is an advocate. She does some speaking and consulting around disability. She is incredibly educated. She's got [00:01:00] a BA and two master's degrees. She even mastered the divine. She is, but most importantly to me, is a really thoughtful, present voice and presence around what it means to be disabled. I want to say abled because think I'm in this 10 tense um, where I'm learning about this. So I don't wanna highlight the disability. But that's kind of why we're here today cuz I need your help and we need your help think differently about this. I've been reading what you've recommended, all of that to say, we are graced with our sister Liz Sta. Come on,
[00:01:56] Liz: Hm,[00:02:00]
Hi,
[00:02:03] Mark: Liz, I'm so glad you're here. Hello?
[00:02:07] Liz: Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:10] Mark: oh. I'm so to have you. You, you heard, I think that's the most confused I think I've ever done an intro. I should have just focused on who you are and welcomed you in, but I already got caught up in where I feel around disability, so let me locate myself. I've always been someone who tried to use around different ability trying to change the language and, and my posture. My mother's best friend growing up had a son who was down and so I was, I always kind of grew up around disability, but my posture is always ability, but I know that sometimes that, that. Overlooking [00:03:00] accessibility and it doesn't quite honor where people are at. So our last conversation was with a sister named Sammy Sammy Hammork, started the Precious Kids Center in Kenya, and I started to get confused about. Okay. What, what do I do with the image of God? When we think about the kinship collective and the messaging and the, the, the news we are trying to spread is that everyone is made in the image of God. There is no other, there is no us and them. There's just us. And as I was having that conversation with Sammy, started to think about like, what is, what am I thinking around disability a disabled body?
Like is that a less than? Is that something. That has yet to heal? Is that something? So I really appreciate some of the literature that you've given me to read up on, and it's been really, really helpful. still, I walk into this conversation, stumbling over my words, not exactly sure how to go there. [00:04:00] so I needed your help to think through some of this stuff. all that being said, Liz, like what comes to you as I say all that
[00:04:10] Liz: Ooh, so much. I think a lot of people, including myself, just feel bubbly and fumbly when it comes to topics outside of ourselves. I, you know, I feel it when I talk to, um, my friends who are transgender or when I talk about race relations and, um, I think for me it's really important we can have grace for each other and, and sort of help each other along.
Um,
[00:04:41] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:42] Liz: uh, I, my goal is to make people feel comfortable with the uncomfortable, if that tracks, um,
[00:04:51] Mark: Yeah.
[00:04:52] Liz: really just say, to call a duck, a duck . So
[00:04:57] Mark: Yeah.
[00:04:58] Liz: it looks like a duck [00:05:00] and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, you know, . Um, and I like to think about. Just, I'm, I'm, I'm a very transparent person. I'm, I'm a pretty blunt person.
It's just kind of my natural way of being and I've had to learn how to sort of like tailor that and tone that down and, you know, for different conversations. But for these kind, I think it's particularly helpful because what I hope it does is set people at ease. Um, it's okay to fumble and bumble your. I don't care.
It's all right. We'll walk through it. We'll talk about it. You know, for me, I'm all about calling a spade a spade. Like I don't need someone to say I'm differently abled. I'm just disabled and so are you. And so is the next person, and so is the next person. You know, Mine are just more obvious. [00:06:00] Um,
[00:06:01] Mark: Mm.
[00:06:02] Liz: so and.
I'm saying something that's sort of controversial, in the disability community at large, you know, there's definitely sort of a polarization of disabled and abled, right? And, um, but I like to, I think like you find the common ground more, um, find where we can connect, um, because ultimately it leads to more fruit.
conversations, and even though some things that we say might not come out as graciously as we'd hoped or even offensive, there's room for apology and there's room to move on and move forward. So that's kind of what's coming to my mind right away when you're saying that.
[00:06:48] Mark: All li. Well, Liz, I really appreciate. Your grace in that. And that's exactly why we are having this conversation with you. And when you say that, [00:07:00] it makes me think of in the race conversation, there's different places that we can be, and sometimes there's a strong voice where you're advocating for something clearly. Like I think about the spectrum on that also. So when you're, when you're being so gracious with me, I'm just thinking of, there are a lot of people. Rightfully so wouldn't be as gracious because they the voice that is asserting position and and advocating for accessibility. And sometimes there can be, like, there can't be compromise that mindset sometimes as it relates to like justice and accessibility in that way.
So guess I'm, I'm just acknowledging the similarity between both of those and the reality that. Not be this to me or to anybody who has a question, which is why you become the bridge person to help us navigate some of this and [00:08:00] what this can feel like, uh, in our conversation. Liz, for me, when you shared that about. Being on that spectrum ability and disability and the way you think of it as a spectrum versus some of the ways that people think of it as a dichotomy or um, two polar kind of opposites. made me think about something you said before about what it has meant for you to embrace disability and what it has meant.
You mentioned the word coming out as Would you share a little bit about what that experiences has has been like for you?
[00:08:32] Liz: Yes, definitely. I think, I think you had asked me, um, maybe beforehand, like, you know, what does it mean to be disabled and proud? And I know especially in, um, religious circles, pride is not really a , like a really well embraced word. Right. Um, it kind of has a negative connotation. Um, and so when I, I, I [00:09:00] grew up.
Let me start with a little disclosure. Kind of disclaimer is that my story is my own and nobody else's,
[00:09:08] Mark: on.
[00:09:09] Liz: I can't speak for others, right? Just myself.
[00:09:12] Mark: right.
[00:09:12] Liz: I can make observations about things I see. And that disclosing disability is an incredibly risky and vulnerable task, um, especially in the marketplace, like with careers.
but because I'm trying to like dispel all that nonsense so that we can get to the heart of things and find fruit, I will disclose because I think it's helpful. I think it builds community instead of. Um, encouraging stigma, but even upon disclosure, stigma happens, right? Because once you say what you have or what you, you know, deal with people already have thoughts [00:10:00] about what that means.
Um,
[00:10:02] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:02] Liz: I just figure we'll just keep talking and hopefully I can dispel some of that. Um,
[00:10:08] Mark: Uhhuh.
[00:10:08] Liz: will say I was born with cerebral palsy, and Cerebral palsy is a very, um, there's a very wide spectrum on what it affects for certain people. Long story short, in my vague medical understanding of it, The baby or, or sometimes toddler, like depending on when is deprived of oxygen, then there's brain damage and the resulting brain damage will affect like muscle coordination, speech, um, maybe cognitive deficits, things like that.
Um, and so I kinda. There's actually a book I love by a guy named Zach Anna, and it's called If at Birth You Don't Succeed . And it's, it's so perfect. Um, and I just, I related to him so much [00:11:00] as I read it. Um, he also has cerebral palsy and, and so you kind of come out of the womb already fighting. Right? Or at least for me, I did.
Um, but for my parents it was sort of like, Help her to have the most normal life she can. And in the medical model of disability, doctors are often focused on, you know, what's, what's non pathological, what is normal, what is, you know, versus pathological, defective, you know, that kind of thing. Um, and so, For me was cerebral palsy.
It made sense, The surgeries I had and things I, um, endured because it's to get you to a place of more mechanical, um, function, right. Um, mobility, um, to be ambulatory, to walk to run. So all those things were seen as good in my community [00:12:00] growing up. And so, you know, you have the surgeries, you do the things, you're in the physical therapy and at the same time, , every little kid just wants to hang out with all the little kids and be normal and normal and what is normal, right?
But there is a spectrum of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, right? And I was, um, because I'm a substitute teacher, sometimes I observe kids, you know, playing like, we call it duck, duck, gray duck in Minnesota. I think it's called duck, duck goose, everywhere else. , uh,
[00:12:34] Mark: was gonna say, yeah, the, uh, I was gonna say something ignorant, like the right way to play it is Doug Duck Goose. But, uh, of course, uh,
[00:12:41] Liz: Yeah. So like, you know, imagine me, I've had, you know, all these like ligament reattachment in second grade and then I'm playing Duck duck, Grey Oak, and I can't get out the circle fast enough to chase the dude. You know, I'm always losing and you know, and that's okay. I mean, I. [00:13:00] For the most part, every single disabled person I've ever met is the most adaptable, flexible, resilient, um, person.
You know, at least for me, it did build those things for me, but it also reinforc this idea if I can be normal, if I can pass, like I'll, I'll succeed. You know, I can,
[00:13:24] Mark: on
[00:13:25] Liz: uh, you know, so when. When I started aging out of my twenties into my thirties, you know, you know cerebral palsy takes it intense toll on people's joints and muscles, and it stresses your body out and comes with a whole slew of.
Side effects that we don't even need to go into here. But you know, it very taxing, at least in my experience. And I have what is called probably a mild case of cerebral palsy.
[00:13:57] Mark: Mm mm-hmm.
[00:13:59] Liz: so [00:14:00] what ends up happening is your, your body just kind of poops out, right? a little bit, at least for me. And so,
[00:14:07] Mark: Uhhuh.
[00:14:08] Liz: know, as, as fit as I used to be and used to run, do all these things, I, you know, I'm slowing.
And I had, I had my spine fused, a level of my spine fused that really slowed me down. Um, in the last five years or so, that's when I started using mobility aids, um, like walking sticks to get around. And uh, you know, in Minnesota people are pretty reserved. . They're not gonna like pry into your personal experience of disability unless they know you pretty well.
Um, were you gonna say something? . Oh, okay. Oh, I, for some reason I, anyway, uh, so I, I came out to Pasadena to go to seminary and I'm using mobility aids and I [00:15:00] sometimes wear compression socks. I have problems with, um, that in my muscle, you know, So then people are asking me about, Kind of on the street, like coming up to me, Can I pray for your healing?
And I'm like, What is this? I don't, you know, I,
[00:15:20] Mark: on,
[00:15:20] Liz: I'm not, Minnesotans are so reserved. I mean, Okay. Occasionally the older gentleman might be like, What's wrong with you? Or Why do you got that cane? And I've got one too, or whatever, you know?
[00:15:32] Mark: Uhhuh, Uhhuh.
[00:15:34] Liz: but. Much more. I don't know, people are just bolder. . Once I was using more mobility aids and I, it kind of brought me back to childhood.
I remember, you know, times where I was using a wheelchair after surgeries and things and just the stairs you kind of endure from everybody. Everyone is just curious for the most part, especially when you're a kid, cuz you're cute. [00:16:00] That's very marketable. . Um, people love all those commercials with cute disabled kids in adaptive clothing and things like that.
Society doesn't as much maybe care as we age , um, as my, you know. So once I hit that point, it was like I couldn't hide that I was disabled anymore. Um, I desperately wanted to
and I just, you know, really struggled with what do I do now? Right? I can't, I can't deceive everybody anymore. So now I have to be honest, about who I am and,
[00:16:48] Mark: Mm.
[00:16:48] Liz: um, you know, at, at seminary, um, around the time that I think we had a class together. , I was working with our access services [00:17:00] director, um, and she had asked me to speak about disability to the chapel or in chapel.
Um, and I really did not wanna do that , and I really sat on that and was like, pass. Um,
[00:17:21] Mark: Mmm.
[00:17:22] Liz: in the end I did it. I prayed about it a lot, and I, um, and so to sort of bring all of these things full circle, I really, that was sort of my coming out moment is I was like, I'm disabled. I , you know, I couldn't hide. I literally couldn't hide.
The podium they had in chapel was clear, like some kind of clear plastic.
[00:17:46] Mark: Yeah.
[00:17:46] Liz: And what happens when I get nervous is my muscle spasm, and so my legs will. And I was like, Cool. Can't even hide that. Like this clear podium, you know? So it was really just kind of like putting [00:18:00] me out there right on, right on camera for all to see.
And so it was a scary moment, um, but it really changed my life for the better because. I'm more willing to talk about it and embrace who I am in this moment and start grappling with all that stuff. Am I gonna let people pray for me for my healing? How come they thought I hadn't before? Uh, you know, why were they assuming that?
Or did they think my faith was too small? Did you know? Well, I'm 33. I'm still disabled. , like I'm still here. Um,
[00:18:38] Mark: Yeah.
[00:18:39] Liz: and. I can definitively say that I think God hasn't healed me so far because my disability transforms me every day. It humbles me. It teaches me empathy. tbh, like I'd [00:19:00] be kind of a jerk. I think if I wasn't disabled I wouldn't care about anybody else, but here I am now I have to sit and I welcome being able to sit in the margins with people and learn from their experiences.
And I don't have to hide anymore because, you know, back when I'm trying to pass a pass is able bodied, I'm living kind of that double life, right? I, you know, I. Uh, feel for folks who are marginalized, but I'm not gonna get too close because what if I'm found out? You know? Um, and so kind of tossing that out the window and sort of saying like, Okay, I'm just gonna say it, and it's gonna be out there and now.
[00:19:47] Mark: Uh huh.
[00:19:48] Liz: All these doors and windows open and it's like, ah, fresh air . You know? So I think that's like the, the beautiful part about embracing [00:20:00] my disability rather than trying to pray it away, trying to heal it, trying to, um, hide it, um, is that I, I'm learning from everyone around me and, and listening and just trying to connect all the time.
And, and say, You're not alone. We're together. We're in this together. And that has really changed my life for the better. So why would I ask God to take it from me? like
[00:20:31] Mark: Yeah.
[00:20:32] Liz: it's a part of me. You know? It's, it's who I am. It's, I came, literally came out this way, you know?
[00:20:40] Mark: yeah. Oh, I'm so grateful, Liz, for your generosity with that story. I feel like there's a couple things that really stand out to me. I'm going to, I really wanna focus in on this person [00:21:00] who welcomed you and said, No, this is something to share. This is something worthy of platform. need to hear your perspective of things because I think as it relates to coming out in any kind of thing, I think of. Our brother Brian Tarara and the Be Free Movement. Be Free Stories the ways they talk about coming out as I'm an undocumented immigrant.
[00:21:29] Liz: Oh,
[00:21:30] Mark: I am
[00:21:31] Liz: oh.
[00:21:32] Mark: I am queer. I am victim of whatever. I'm an addict. There's something powerful about being invited into that, that ch Like for you it said, you said, I was trying to um, able pass for able bodied. There came a moment when you could no longer pass where you needed to rely on something that gave you away, so to speak. [00:22:00] But someone invited you and said like, I'll walk with you. I see this differently. Would you share about. in that process. When you said you prayed a lot and you discerned, what were you feeling and sensing about what it meant to come out to take that speaking opportunity and to use your voice and to come out publicly, so to speak? did you sense throughout that process?
[00:22:27] Liz: Hmm, great questions. This is all pre pandemic, and so now I'm like, what happened back then? , I feel like
[00:22:35] Mark: Yeah.
[00:22:36] Liz: endured this global trauma and I, I don't even remember who I was five years ago. You know? Um,
[00:22:42] Mark: for sure. Yep.
[00:22:43] Liz: not with just the pandemic, but with everything happening in this world. Um, but
[00:22:48] Mark: Yeah.
[00:22:49] Liz: yeah, so our director of Access services, her name's Bethany McKinney Fox.
She's got an excellent book out called Disability in the Way of Jesus, and [00:23:00] she. She had emailed me to be like, Would you speak? And I was, I ignored the email cause that's the kind of person I am. I'm a great person. So I was like, mm, pass. And oh, the topic was gratitude and disability cuz it was around Thanksgiving and I was.
I ain't grateful.
[00:23:24] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:25] Liz: was just like, What am I gonna talk about? Um, and then actually you and I were in class together. I don't know, do you remember this? Uh, we were in class and we had, um, uh, at, uh, was it community? Practices of community? I think maybe,
[00:23:43] Mark: Maybe so. Okay.
[00:23:45] Liz: um, and we were reading that bit in ma Matthew where uh, Jesus says like, Look at the birds of the field.
Look at the flowers, like I take care of them. [00:24:00] Why would you think I wouldn't take care of you? And in that weird moment in this classroom, and seminary, God just really spoke to my heart and I, I felt for the first time, kind of a freedom from shame. That I can't work as much as everybody else, that I can't produce as much.
I can't earn as much money. I can't really provide for myself. I'm dependent on others, my family, you know? Um, and it really hit my heart like, Okay, the birds don't do anything. The flowers don't do anything God provides for them. He'll provide for. , and I'm still valued, and I don't know if you remember this, but it really impacted me.
But after class, you came and gave me a hug and I just was like blown away because I didn't know that other people maybe felt some similar things to me. You know?
[00:24:56] Mark: Mmm.
[00:24:57] Liz: I thought that I was holding onto this shame [00:25:00] as like, everyone else can do all this and I can't. Right? But. I don't know what moved you that day or you know, anything.
I don't think we really knew each other, but you just came and gave me this. Again, it was so, such a relief and such a, such a medicine to me. And like it was such a beautiful moment. Um, and so you were, you were in the process, Mark, you were in my like coming out process where I was.
[00:25:28] Mark: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Liz: dang. Like maybe I don't have to hide this and carry all of this and feel so much shame about it.
And so I think in in, I finally sat down, I said, Do you still need someone to speak? And Bethany was like, Yeah, I was hoping you would come by . It had been like three weeks, so I thought I was maybe gonna like some.
[00:25:52] Mark: the
[00:25:52] Liz: Yeah,
[00:25:54] Mark: Yep.
[00:25:54] Liz: uh, and she was like, Great, put you on the schedule. And I was like, [00:26:00] Oh, great.
[00:26:02] Mark: Yeah,
[00:26:02] Liz: Uh, but I just started, I just really hung my hat on that bit of scripture and I was like, Okay.
I'm not grateful for a lot about my disability. At times, I'm in pain and I'm hurting and I'm tired, and I, you know, there are so many things about it I hate and I just feel wretched about. So what would I feel grateful about? Well, I would feel grateful that. It brought me to a place to realize God still values me beyond what I produce, that I have value regardless of my ability.
Right.
[00:26:43] Mark: Mm-hmm. . Mm.
[00:26:45] Liz: and that is sort of what I clung to, and it is sort of this baby first step stage that I feel like I'm still in sometimes where I'm just really unpacking all of these feelings that, you know, I've pretty much kept [00:27:00] to myself for the first three decades of my life. And then now I'm like, Oh, that was a lot of stuff.
you know,
[00:27:10] Mark: Uhhuh.
[00:27:11] Liz: So that's a little bit of how it, how it kind of came about.
[00:27:17] Mark: Liz. I want us to, love that. Well, first of all, I, I didn't know, you know, I, I don't remember that moment in that class. I remember being in classes and I remember your courage, the ways that you took up space. I remember your joy and I remember, I just remember you being almost like, Unapologetically you even before you know, some of this moment.
So that's how I experienced you in, in our apartment complexes in and around campus and stuff like that. So I'm, I'm just so grateful [00:28:00] to me it's just that of how we treat each other with and dignity and respect and honor like family, that kinship. We can be a part of just reminding people of how good they are and how good God is and like, without even knowing it, like it can be a small thing. So I'm, I'm so humbled by that. So I feel like we're gonna get into scripture. I also am really, uh, not blown away, but it's interesting how sometimes. The reading of scripture or just seeing it a new way, unleash perspective, can like reorient our perspective. Our lives speak to us so deeply into these places of doubt or or fear or whatever, invite us into more ness.
So I love that [00:29:00] that was a part of your story With that in mind, The book, one of the books that you recommended to me before we get into scripture around our own set of scripture, you recommended that I look into the disabled God toward a liber liberatory theology of disability by Nancy Eland, and I have like loved every word of it,
[00:29:26] Liz: Yes,
[00:29:26] Mark: but one of the things that that really stuck out to me, When you talked about someone, someone coming up to you and praying for you. To me it feels so, Um, I don't know. Like that, would like to believe that that person's heart was just, they want you to experience the best life or what they have deemed the best life, which is your life without disability. And it reminds me of a line that talked about, there are things that make us, that are confusing in this picture.
One of them is that Jesus went around healing people. [00:30:00] So was Jesus doing? I think that's a part of like some of my confusion or, or tension and like block around disability is like, well, it seems like Jesus was trying to alleviate people of disability. Is that God's best for people? You are describing this is, this is how I. Come to understand this as this invitation to empathy and solidarity with other people who don't have access in different ways. And you've talked about coming out and I think of other groups of people who have to come out and find pride in their identity. I think about, you've talked about this spectrum of belief and justice and and spectrum that that creates.
And can think of other people who do that same kind of thing. And your disability has created solidarity. You understand when someone. Is dead set on justice and accessibility the right to vote, the right to be the right to [00:31:00] marry the right to all these rights. Um, you talked about having a community that's accessible and experience where people can access community. So for me, one of those powerful lines in this book was that we romanticize. I think it talked about we romanticize the body or like this image of body that's fully able and we, and the fact that Jesus has done all this healing, then we just assume that like, well, that everybody who's disabled needs to be healed now because of both the pictures we've seen of Jesus doing that this picture of an enable body that is, 2% body fat that can just, you know, run faster than everybody else, jump faster or whatever.
Especially like in Southern California or in like the United States or in like the social media era where we have access to like everything in the entire world at our fingertips in a phone. When you go back to those moments when people are trying to pray for you, like you talked about [00:32:00] earlier, do you think I don't have a faith enough?
Do you think, I don't pray enough? Do you think I, whatever that is, how do you respond to. That Jesus is healing and this version of like a body.
[00:32:14] Liz: Hmm. Those are some big questions for sure. I think, uh, I. See, So the field of disability studies, um, is newer. I think it kind of takes its leaves from books, um, the books of, um, racial justice and queer theory. And, and so then we have like crip theory, right? Um, and so I would say the secular disability studies field.
Probably light years ahead of what the disability studies in, in a religious or theological context
[00:32:59] Mark: mm-hmm.
[00:32:59] Liz: [00:33:00] you know, a lot of people, just a hundred percent reject the religious or moral model of disability that might say, um, you're disabled because you're sinful, or you're. God doesn't want this for you or, um, which I, this third aspect, which I do subscribe to within my Orthodox tradition, which is that God uses my suffering in ways that are good for my salvation, good for the community, good for the life of the world.
Um, and, uh, a lot of. Disability justice folks might disagree with me for subscribing to that. Um, it's, you know, maybe in a way kind of offensive, like, why does my suffering need to have meaning? Right? , it's like, why do bad things happen to good people or, you know, that kind of thing.
[00:33:55] Mark: Mm.
[00:33:57] Liz: And I think even the more progressive of [00:34:00] disability studies, theologians, even like, like Bethany, um, McKinney Fox, she, she would say, Well, why does it, you know, why does it have to have meaning?
Or why do you know why or why do you have to be healed? Right? Why? Um,
[00:34:11] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:12] Liz: um, you know, some people who are wheelchair users might say, Well, in heaven, everyone uses wheelchairs, Right? Um,
[00:34:20] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:21] Liz: and I see what you're saying about the tension between what Christ does in scripture and what you know, what do we do when you have people like me letting it healed?
And yes, I've prayed for it. And yes, I've had people pray for me. Uh, they were not, uh, People on the street. They were people who, with whom I shared relationships, um,
[00:34:46] Mark: Yeah.
[00:34:47] Liz: is my preference. Um, just as a very, uh, kind of shy Minnesotan. I'm like, uh, no thanks, bye. But I can't say that as a Minnesotan, I [00:35:00] have to say.
Sure. . Um,
[00:35:02] Mark: Uh,
[00:35:03] Liz: so. It. Um, and no, I don't, by the way, uh, for anyone listening, you do not have to ever let anybody pray for your healing. Um, and it, it's good for me to practice saying no. Um, and it.
[00:35:17] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:18] Liz: Difficult for me to say no, um, and remains that way. Um, for as blunt as I am, I sure freeze up in the in the moment, uh, because there's a lot to unpack in that power dynamics and, you know, all kinds of things.
Um, but with Jesus, I think a lot of scholars have, what I've seen is focused on what happens to the community when someone's heal. . Um, so a Ms. Young, uh, Dean, Dean of Fuller, he's got a book, uh, forgive me. The title is not totally,
[00:35:57] Mark: Renewing. I think it's renewing Christian [00:36:00] theology or
[00:36:00] Liz: uh,
[00:36:01] Mark: least one
[00:36:01] Liz: yeah, that one. I think I know what you're talking about. This one's called like the Bible Disability in the World, or not in that order, . Uh, but, uh, he, he talks about his, um, Brother who has Down syndrome. And so he comes from that perspective and he really put turn scripture on its head and says, you know, these are other ways we can think about these healings and things like that.
Um, I, I do find those helpful. Um, I really, I just kind of cringe sometimes when healing is the preach passage of the day or whatever. Um, cuz I just never know what's coming. I cringe less in the Orthodox tradition because, and I say this totally tongue in cheek, orthodoxy is more like suffering's good for you.
It brings you closer to Jesus. It's not . Um, but [00:37:00] the, I mean, it, it's a good perspective. So like, um, the guy in the, uh, who's trying to get to the pool to, to be healed and he can't get through it, he might be. and you know, they'll say like, Okay, Jesus got him and healed him, right? He got him into the waters.
And, um, but a disability, uh, study theologian might say, What was the problem? That he couldn't get to the pool. Was it the problem that people like, weren't even helping him and didn't care? , they were blocking his way. Right. Um, was it really about the fact that he needed healing or did he live in a society that was never gonna become accessible?
You know, this is what Jesus could do to help him the most. Was it to bring people a sense of wonder? Um, was it. You know, and sometimes it's a, it's about Jesus saying, [00:38:00] Hey, it's not because you're sinful, it's just because you're disabled. Like the blind man, you know, he,
[00:38:05] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:06] Liz: the parents are like, Did we sin?
Did we do something wrong? No, you didn't. Right. Um,
[00:38:13] Mark: Yeah.
[00:38:14] Liz: and yet, of course I ask why, I don't know why I wasn't healed and why others were. I'm gonna let God deal with that in God's time. Um, and so for me, also, mark the tension remains. Um, I don't always agree with every interpretation of the story or focus, but I do find myself questioning how.
The writers of scripture saw disabled people and how, how following that, you know, people who publish bibles, like this one really [00:39:00] gets me. They call 'em the Garine Damc, and I'm like, That dude's a human . Like I,
[00:39:08] Mark: yeah,
[00:39:08] Liz: would be so offended if someone called me a demoniac, like,
[00:39:12] Mark: yeah.
[00:39:13] Liz: You know, um,
[00:39:15] Mark: Wow.
[00:39:15] Liz: he's, he's a, he's a man.
He.
[00:39:21] Mark: A family. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Mm.[00:40:00]
Uh,
mm-hmm. , Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
[00:00:00] Mark: Liz, I, I so much appreciate that thought about, even in the Bible, there's a label that goes over this person's life that then we start seeing them through a different lens. We start interpreting their experiences. There's distance. So this is a democ, so of course they should be treated this way, or they're not human.
But I love that you bring us back to, No, this is a human, Was it? Was it heart to. Move into that Christ hard broken in that moment around the way that this person had been separated from so many people treated inhumanely and the work of justice and love and advocacy in that moment is to create access.
And back then, I think maybe the fastest way, like is not a reform of that whole society, but it is to give this person. A life that can no longer be [00:01:00] labeled and othered in that way. One thing that I think that you brought up that is so important to me, that changes a lot of like how we see scripture. The is not from our time, like the, the whole world views around scripture.
The world that it comes from is ancient, and that means, Their perspectives towards disability back then were probably filled with so much superstition. It was what was handed to them. It was what was grafted onto them the times that they were exiled into Babylon, they were part of a Syria, they were taken over, they were enslaved to Egypt.
So their mindset around this was all this amalgamation and mix of. Beliefs in worldviews and theologies around how did the gods punish humans? What does it mean from generation to generation to generation? And they're taking shots at the dark and. They're proclaiming these things, but they're writing things [00:02:00] down in a certain way that worldview.
And the Bible is an ancient text and we have to remember that when we're reading the scriptures out of it, this isn't apples to apples and it comes from an entire worldview and history that is different than ours. So I love that you would bring that up so casually cuz I think some, lot of us, we've grown up in churches where, Look, this is the inherent word of God.
It is faithful to do what it says it's gonna do, and all these kinds of ideas and those things are true and the spectrum begins there. Well inherent to do what? Infallible to do what. And that's, there's a diversity of thought around that and it's completely okay it's completely. Orthodox to think differently.
There's a diversity of Orthodox thought around what it is infallible to do, what it is inherent to do. I think what we have to Peter ends talks about the [00:03:00] Bible is ancient, so it comes from a different world. It's ambiguous. There are times where it might say one thing, but it doesn't mean that. Thing, it might be a euphemism for another thing, and we don't, unless we're in that world, we don't understand, unless we've done that work or we've read some other work around it, we don't understand what is being said around that.
Sometimes it's ambiguous. It's ancient, ambiguous, and it's diverse. It is this book that does highlight the perspective. Of a disabled person gives them a voice in a world, in an ancient world where they had no voice. That gives voice to slaves, likes that gives voices to women like Ruth, that gives voices to children like the boy who brings his lunch and shares with.
the whole, everyone on this hillside. This is different than any other book we've seen, but I love that you would remind us about the actuality around that, and then also translation and that every time that this is translated, someone is doing an interpretive job, they're interpreting what [00:04:00] they think is the best way to help people navigate now or according to their own kind of.
So that part is all really important. I love that you brought that up to me. Thinking through all of this that you've shared about disability, what I appreciate is how you step into and your posture around helping people change their perspective. What does it mean to make a small difference?
What does it mean to move the needle? What does it mean to make. My community, my home. How do I start with just my home? How is my home accessible? is my home a part of creating justice for sisters and brothers who are disabled? And I have family members who are disabled. So I think through like their ability to walk in my home, how do I, what does space look like for them?
But that's like, because of my proximity to this issue, I, I don't get away from it. For you, when you think about that, I, [00:05:00] to me, there's a scripture that you brought up, so I'm gonna read it and let's kind of think through what could this mean for every one of us listening? What is our part to play making the world more accessible, in making the spaces that we have influence in our own little spheres of influence, how do we make them more accessible?
So I'm gonna pull open Luke. Luke chapter 21. I'll read just a couple small verses and then the double master, Liz is gonna give us some perspective here and we'll just kind of kick it around a little bit, we wanna know about Luke. think that's helpful. And when we hear text from Luke, Luke, they call him the physician, but Luke's text really emphasizes the other.
So Luke's going to try and write all these stories about others being welcomed back into the community, the Gentiles, the people who aren't supposed to be welcome. These are [00:06:00] the people that Luke is emphasizing? No, no, no. Jesus touched them. Jesus became with them. So Jesus identified with the unclean, quote unquote, those people who were ostracized because of a physical ailment, because of their ethnic or cultural background.
Jesus. Not just identifies them, but prioritizes them. And so here we find Jesus in this moment paying attention to what's around him and making a declaration about what matters and how it matters where? In Luke chapter 21, it says, Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, then he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins.
And he said, Truly, I tell you, this poor woman has put in more than all of them. They all contributed out of their abundance, [00:07:00] but she, of her poverty, put in all she had to live on. And while some were speaking of the temple, it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he. As for these things that you see, the day will come when there will not be left here, one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.
It's Luke 21 versus one through six. Liz, when you think about our conversation that we've had so far, what comes to mind for you around this text?
[00:07:37] Elizabeth: Hmm. So much When I, when I first was reading through it and I was really praying, um, was thinking with this story about this widow. You, it's such a short little snippet scripture, right?
[00:07:54] Track 1: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:55] Elizabeth: four sentences?
[00:07:57] Mark: Yep.
[00:07:58] Elizabeth: and I feel like you [00:08:00] could come away kind of that Hey, this poor widow gave everything she had. Um, and so you should give everything you have. But
[00:08:13] Track 1: Yeah.
[00:08:13] Elizabeth: thought of it in the sense. It wasn't a lot What she
[00:08:20] Track 1: Yeah.
[00:08:21] Elizabeth: small.
[00:08:21] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:23] Elizabeth: And sometimes we can give might be small. And I want to extend that to the conversation and what it means to make, um, churches and, and coffee houses and. I don't know, you know, stores and theaters and all these things that we inhabit as people accessible. It is a, you know, I think we've talked about it a lot in the last three years, just as a, as a people, as humans, [00:09:00] that the, the burden is great on all of us to do a lot of, You know, to read about being an anti-racist to, to figure out, um, you know, how can we best include, um, and begin a, a route of healing for, uh, you know, Um, LGBTQ members of our communities and, and, um, black, indigenous and people of color and, you know, um, it's, it's a lot It's
[00:09:31] Track 1: Yeah.
[00:09:32] Elizabeth: and we're all operating on really limited time, and there's never enough time.
And we never, And so then it's like, well, screw it. I can't, I can't do it you know,
[00:09:42] Mark: Yep. Yeah.
[00:09:43] Elizabeth: I'm too overwhelmed.
[00:09:44] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:46] Elizabeth: for me, this scripture stood out. I guess it spoke to my heart of just me kind of bleeding with the wider community of, of my brethren and um, sisters and brothers. [00:10:00] hey, give a little bit, it doesn't have to be the world
[00:10:06] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:07] Elizabeth: little bit or our, are your immunocompromised people not coming to Bible study anymore because no one's masking? maybe mask. you know, so that they can come.
[00:10:20] Mark: Wow.
[00:10:21] Elizabeth: It's a small thing.
[00:10:22] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:23] Elizabeth: ask. Um, uh, always have your church do, streaming and
[00:10:30] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:31] Elizabeth: Then no
[00:10:31] Track 1: Mm,
[00:10:32] Elizabeth: ask for them, know,
[00:10:34] Mark: mm-hmm.
[00:10:34] Elizabeth: those things can be given to people who are gifted, you know, the people who do the sound booths and the um, captions and the songs. That could be their task. And it's just one thing, you
[00:10:47] Mark: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
[00:10:48] Elizabeth: it will become habit as you do it more, right? Um, it's tiring and difficult and, and kind of gigantic at first, but it's still, you're two might,
[00:10:58] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:58] Elizabeth: everyone would give their two [00:11:00] mights, we'd be rich, right? Like, um, so I think of that a lot.
And then the second passage, Technically, biblical scholars would probably quibble with me and say, Hey, this is about the destruction of the temple. But what I would say is I see it as Jesus saying, Look at this beautiful temple. All the gifts, all the, you know, whatever's there, the stones, the gifts, it's gonna be down. So it spoke to me that I felt the spirit heavy on this. we can build the beautiful churches and the modern, um, spaces in which Christians can worship or you know, the coffee houses where we can hang, but if, if we're not bringing in all the people that are excluded, they're not gonna thrive. You know, I think it's
[00:11:53] Track 1: Mm.
[00:11:54] Elizabeth: I'm bad at math. in five. Is that 20%? Yeah,
[00:11:58] Mark: Yep.
[00:11:59] Elizabeth: [00:12:00] of the population is disabled. So, Oh, you're missing out on the riches of 20% of our population's. Wisdom contribution and and goodness. And sure you can on in your, know, with steps leading up to your bookstore. But what if it was a ramp? You know, um, how many more people are you bringing in?
And think I wanna emphasize. When it comes to access this widow participated, um, it isn't just about including disabled people or accessible spaces, it's also about allowing participation and
[00:12:44] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:45] Elizabeth: Um, uh, I don't think people always think of disabled folks, marginalized folks as leaders
[00:12:56] Mark: Mmm.
[00:12:57] Elizabeth: So many are, look at Nancy Eastland, [00:13:00] who wrote The Disabled God,
[00:13:02] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:03] Elizabeth: leader for
[00:13:04] Mark: Absolutely.
[00:13:05] Elizabeth: know? Um, and God rest her soul. She's dead now. Um, but she was a leader for me. She spoke to me, right? Um,
[00:13:16] Mark: Mmm.
[00:13:17] Elizabeth: somebody gave. The, you know, means to produce her book, you know?
[00:13:24] Mark: Yeah.
[00:13:25] Elizabeth: we can build all these beautiful things, but if people can't get in, what's the point?
[00:13:29] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:30] Elizabeth: the point? So that's kind of where I came from on those scriptures, I think. I think they just can speak to us and it can encourage us. We're contributing out of abundance. Then yeah, give everyth. I would love for people to just donate all their money and make accessible spaces, you know, Um, not to throw Fuller under the bus, but they they, uh, their fire plan was [00:14:00] to. Essentially drag people down the stairs if there's a fire,
[00:14:07] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:08] Elizabeth: there's no other way for us to come down. We can't use the elevators during a fire.
[00:14:13] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:14] Elizabeth: a, what a dehumanizing, demoralizing, you know, act.
[00:14:20] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:20] Elizabeth: and a liability, Right. Um, for, for the school, but just a. It's, it's seeing those things, starting to see those things, and I think, Hey, if you can spend your two mates that, just see it, see the ramps and the curb cuts, and how far all those things are from the streets.
And look at your church. Do you have people leading or have you kind of marked them as only to be served and not to have them serve you, you know?
[00:14:54] Mark: Mm. I, I so appreciate all of that [00:15:00] perspective, Liz. I, for me, first gut response was like out of like my old, um, like my embodied, um, the, the faith I grew up in, which is basically like sacrifice at all for God. And so like I had this gut negative response to like, Jesus lifting up this woman, giving her last, you.
To, you know, mites to the church. And in my mind I'm like, I could just hear like financial specialists being like, Pay yourself first, Pay yourself pay, make sure you pay for a few, Pay yourself, save children. Like I just hear all that stuff. And for me, like all of that is new. Like I just grew up in like a faith tradition and I watched faith like you give everything you have to the church and then you just kind of let the cards fall where they fall.
and I don't, you know, so that was like my gut response. But after you shared, it just made me think of [00:16:00] not just like our mights or our financial ability to make a difference, but those of us who are able bodied, like how do we give our gifts in service alongside our sisters and brothers who may be Like how do we let them describe reality for us? And then how do we respond to that? Maybe in ways that they can't, It could be financial, but it could also be, you know, like you talked about these, a ramp or, or a lower third and the words and constant translation, all these kinds of things. For me, I just had that image of like, when the water rises, when we make this more accessible to the person who has the least ability to access it, it just becomes more accessible for everyone.
Like, All of us, like instead of like stepping up steps, like walking up a ramp is easier for everyone. So that came to my mind about [00:17:00] for the farthest, those who have least access just means accessibility for everyone. Better accessibility. So that, those are some of the things that come to me around the.
[00:17:12] Elizabeth: Ugh, that's beautiful, Mark. And that's exactly, I think what disability justice advocates want people to see that universal access means everybody has easier access. You know, even people who wouldn't identify as deaf or a heart of hearing, um, or hearing impaired, they all have their preferred terminology. Captions are nice. watch British TV and sometimes I never know what they're saying. know, I'm like, uh, I just like captions or, you know, they gotta, they've got like this dark background, I can't even see what's going on, you know,
[00:17:53] Mark: Yeah.
[00:17:54] Elizabeth: it's just nice to have that. And, um, I really, [00:18:00] I see how it just benefits us as a whole. Right. Like, uh, and, and I think that's the big goal for justice is to say, know, access is for everybody. Um, it's, it can only, it can only go toward. Goodness. Like it's only gonna get better. Right.
[00:18:26] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:27] Elizabeth: and you know, I appreciate that you see me as somebody full of hope. I feel that
[00:18:33] Mark: Uh
[00:18:33] Elizabeth: cynical, um, know, like, this is never gonna happen.
[00:18:38] Mark: Uhhuh.
[00:18:39] Elizabeth: you know, I mean, I've lost jobs for being You know, I've, I even at my last, my last, uh, job, I, but the, uh, moving trucks would park across the disability parking spaces and I would say, Hey, we can't do [00:19:00] that. Not just because that's where I park, but because all of our visitors park there.
And also it's illegal, you know, but it just happened again and again and again. And I'm like, Well, I just banging my head on a door? You know, am I, Um, I, and that's why I try to kind of keep. Putting my hope in the, in the, these, these efforts that people make, May they be small, may they be big, They are happening.
You know, I reached out to a guy, some guy wrote an article and he kept saying wheelchair bound. And I found him on Twitter and I sent him a little note and I was like, Hey man, we don't really say that anymore. We'll say like, wheelchair user. Um, because. Wheelchairs. It
[00:19:48] Mark: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:49] Elizabeth: and freedom and independence.
They're not
[00:19:51] Mark: Mm.
[00:19:52] Elizabeth: bound, know,
[00:19:53] Mark: Uhhuh.
[00:19:55] Elizabeth: and he just like wrote me a note back and was like, Hey, thanks for that. Like, I'm gonna think [00:20:00] about that more and I'm changing my article. Like
[00:20:02] Mark: Uh,
[00:20:03] Elizabeth: it was an article I wrote on Apple News. It's just some random, like, um, and you know, And I try to really take hope in that I like texted my whole family.
I was like, Oh my gosh, he heard me and he wasn't defensive. And like I would try to be really kind in my outreach as well. You know,
[00:20:22] Mark: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
[00:20:23] Elizabeth: like him out, you know, but just to be like, Hey bro, you know,
[00:20:30] Mark: Yeah.
[00:20:30] Elizabeth: this, could be useful. Um, and that, those kind of things get me excited. on this podcast is so humbling and such an
[00:20:38] Mark: Yeah.
[00:20:39] Elizabeth: it's to think, know, maybe someone hears me talking about this, is gonna start thinking about, I don't know, building a ramp in their church.
[00:20:49] Mark: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:50] Elizabeth: putting buttons to open the doors. I mean, just things, right?
And if we don't stop talking about it and we don't stop [00:21:00] hoping, then think it can happen. But. Hope is hard to come by I think sometimes. And it's uh, and these are the kind of things that bring me hope, so thank you for that. I am so grateful.
[00:21:15] Track 1: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Mark: Oh.
You know, for me, one last word, what came up for me when you talked about writing to that person, sometimes we talked about that, the democ, and we demonize these people and we assume that there's intentionality behind.
[00:21:32] Elizabeth: hmm.
[00:21:32] Mark: Working like a framework that's working for them currently. So they use this word wheelchair bound.
And we can take that personally. We can be offended by that. But I think that when we do that, then we are do, we are demonizing that other person. So we are othering them, we are creating distance, We are treating them as less than humane. But when we speak to the best in them, assume the best about them, then we're inviting them to participate as their best self.
We can make an [00:22:00] assumption that, hey, just, Hey, I just wanted you to know this is how we talk about this. know that if you know better, you'll do better, and sometimes some people don't, no one is like a demonn. Sometimes we act out of our woundedness. Sometimes we are ignorant, sometimes we're angry, we're sad, we're hungry, we're tired.
We make mistakes, but. We, if we choose not to add to that demonizing others, then we can invite people to be their best selves in whatever platform, whatever spaces they have. And to me, Liz, that's who you are and I love that. So thank you for spending your time with us. Thank you for educating us and helping us to see.
Disability through your eyes and inviting us to become advocates. can't wait for your book. I know you're working on your book. We won't share it. It's not out there yet. It's not even, uh, we don't got the contract yet, so we won't give any ideas about that. No, no intellectual properties going out there right now, but [00:23:00] the world needs your book and your voice on these issues, and I'm really I can't wait to support. However, I. Um, kinship. Can't wait to support however we can. Thank you, Liz. We appreciate you. Take care sister.
[00:23:13] Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me!
